The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special

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G0ddard B0lt	The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special		Lead	[-]
Posts: 9437 11/24/09 01:49:52 Have you ever tasted a rainbow? At OpenIT, you will.	Tags : None http://discuss.joelonsoft...ault.asp?biz.5.789149.15 Basically - Some schmuck posts his web site for critique to a thread. The author of a different product that has a UI that resembles the original poster charges the first guy with piracy. It goes straight downhill from there with multiple people including the super successful software tycoon Andy Brice accusing the OP of sleaze and improper actions. Subtext: Participation in Joel on Software's business of software forum is hazardous to your mental health and sanity. F*ck 'em all...
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John Masterson		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7183 11/24/09 11:41:56 Moderator	It sounds like the first guy stole the code and changed the look of the windows a little bit in the Resource Editor. I thought it was about software theft, not the UI. "To those who believe, no explanation is needed. To those who don't, no explanation will do."
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G0ddard B0lt		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9438 11/24/09 12:29:48 Have you ever tasted a rainbow? At OpenIT, you will.	My opinion is that the guy who posted the thread perhaps very unwisely copied the look and feel of the UI of the software author who is complaining. Everyone there is rushing to judgement.
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G0ddard B0lt		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9439 11/24/09 12:54:55 Have you ever tasted a rainbow? At OpenIT, you will.	John Masterson wrote: It sounds like the first guy stole the code and changed the look of the windows a little bit in the Resource Editor. I thought it was about software theft, not the UI. This is actually kind of funny. I wondered what it looked like so I attempted to download one of the guy's demos. My AV blocked the download with a warning about an embedded virus. Ok, so the OP is sleaze. Funny how he homed in on JoS to promote his virus ware. It still doesn't say good things about JoS....
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Origisaurus	Look and feel can not be protected by copyright	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 850 11/24/09 15:35:00 Moderator, and part-time dangerous raptor	Pecunia Loquet, Merda Tauri Ambulat
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G0ddard B0lt		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9440 11/24/09 15:55:53 Have you ever tasted a rainbow? At OpenIT, you will.	Origisaurus: Look and feel can not be protected by copyright That's why I posted this thread. Those idiots are all so quick to jump on a bandwagon, even when it's wrong.
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John Masterson		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7185 11/24/09 16:57:00 Moderator	My impression is that the original poster stole the code from a cracked copy, and pasted in slightly different window definitions for the UI. G0ddard, are you saying that clearly did not happen and these guys are all idiots? I am confused on this one. I'd sure be angry if it happened to me. "To those who believe, no explanation is needed. To those who don't, no explanation will do."
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Richardk		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2278 11/24/09 17:47:33 Moderator	They might be a bunch of idiots. That UI wouldn't be that difficult to "copy" yet they're all talking about a cracked copy. Why don't they run both copies and see how they perform. I think that would be more telling of whether he used a cracked copy or not. As for the look and feel, if you find something that works then why not copy it? The two products are not exactly the same but similar enough. Kind of like driving a Honda, GM and Ford; their user interfaces from the drivers point of view have a lot of similarities. They are really funny. I wonder if they ever heard of the iPhone? I'm willing to bet that many of those apps have "similar" UI's and with so many apps how could they all be unique and what would the benefit be besides frustration and confusion? Last Edited By: Richardk 11/24/09 17:59:58. Edited 1 time.
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John Masterson		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7186 11/24/09 18:29:46 Moderator	I thought they compared and decided they both performed exactly alike, with the same commands in the same order. "To those who believe, no explanation is needed. To those who don't, no explanation will do."
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Origisaurus		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 852 11/24/09 18:34:51 Moderator, and part-time dangerous raptor	John Masterson wrote: I thought they compared and decided they both performed exactly alike, with the same commands in the same order. Even so. Functionality is part of look and feel, and can not be protected by copyright. The key concept is "embodiment" of the idea, and not the idea itself. And you can easily circumvent that by changing the names of variables and other objects. Pecunia Loquet, Merda Tauri Ambulat
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John Masterson		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7187 11/24/09 18:49:02 Moderator	Origisaurus wrote: John Masterson wrote: I thought they compared and decided they both performed exactly alike, with the same commands in the same order. Even so. Functionality is part of look and feel, and can not be protected by copyright. The key concept is "embodiment" of the idea, and not the idea itself. And you can easily circumvent that by changing the names of variables and other objects. Dino, When you program in Wndows there is a tool called the resource editor. Basically you use it to create the definitions of the dialogs used in the program. The dialogs read the definition to see how they should display themselves: color, text, etc. The assertion is that this guy took someone else's program and simply attached the resource editor and changed the dialog definitions within the program slightly. Then this guy sold the program as his own work. That's what they are arguing about. "To those who believe, no explanation is needed. To those who don't, no explanation will do."
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Richardk	If that's what he did...	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2279 11/24/09 20:50:42 Moderator	John Masterson wrote: The assertion is that this guy took someone else's program and simply attached the resource editor and changed the dialog definitions within the program slightly. If that's what he did then he clearly stole the program even though he changed the UI.
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G0ddard B0lt	No, don't think so...	#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9441 11/24/09 21:11:26 Have you ever tasted a rainbow? At OpenIT, you will.	As far as I could tell from that thread, nobody had downloaded the application and examined it to compare it to the one alleged to be the "original". IE, nobody there as of this writing had downloaded the application and had done a dump of, say, symbols or the resources to determine if the new guy's product is a crack of the supposed original. My point was that the mob is piling on there based on a supposition. Copying the look and feel is probably legal, but may appear questionable. That is as much as I would be willing to assume without examining the two products side by side. Copy the program itself and replacing the dialog resources is criminal. Everyone on JoS is assuming that the new guy's program is warez. I'm assuming nothing except that the guy has poor judgement.
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Richardk	I'll agree with that but I'm still wondering...	#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2280 11/24/09 21:52:08 Moderator	It seems like the product is an executable. Can you copy the program itself and replace the dialog resources? Isn't that compiled in? On a separate note, the guy might have 'poor judgment' but as far as the UI goes aren't we always talking about 'improving' upon a design instead of doing a 180 and rolling our own? Competition sucks but with the UI did he actually do something wrong? He might not be considered a great designer but if you like what you see, then why not borrow from it? Isn't that the gist of "don't reinvent the wheel"? This is a good example of how far you can or can't go with it. Don't mean to hijack the thread but this seems to be the core issue with his program.
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John Masterson		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7188 11/24/09 22:53:44 Moderator	Richard, I don't know the answer about that. In the thread the fellow who claimed theft and the guy with the supposed pirated copy both said they used the same tools to create the program. Something called Tesseract and two other tools. "To those who believe, no explanation is needed. To those who don't, no explanation will do."
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G0ddard B0lt	If it was Delphi...	#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9442 11/24/09 23:17:00 Have you ever tasted a rainbow? At OpenIT, you will.	Then, in summary: The executable is pure Win32 binary. The screen layouts are "baked into" the binary code of the program. It is not possible to, say, replace a dialog box with a different dialog box without essentially disassembling the code. I think Delphi apps contain resources, like Visual C++ and Windows API applications do, but the format doesn't seem to be the same in any way. Again, nobody trashing this guy on that board has actually examined the program. I am assuming that the guy copied the look and feel from the supposed pirated application. That, in itself, is not piracy and is not particularly illegal. It's just tacky. It may be a crack. My point is that nobody on JoS has really determined this before hanging the guy. I don't see why they don't delete the thread if it is a crack. The guy protesting certainly has enough evidence to proceed with whatever he is going to do. Last Edited By: G0ddard B0lt 11/24/09 23:28:06. Edited 1 time.
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Peter Codewrite	Well - I certainly learned a few things from this thread:	#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 834 11/25/09 21:11:38 Senior Member	I want to thank everyone for their feedback, both positive and negative. I have taken down the scanning software on both sites and will be redesigning the interface. I had originally hired someone on odesk to do the design. I will still be using the same components as imageen does all the scanning out of the box for twain. It is a great toolset. Regarding ocr, its open source and I will still be using that. Regarding filekicker, that is a download service. It is not a virus site. I understand your concern. You can go to http://filekicker.com and review their service. Thanks again for all of your feedback and have a great week. Kind Regards. jon craig Wednesday, November 25, 2009 1. Don't be too fast to judge people. 2. Be careful when you outsource software development. 3. Virus scanners give a lot of false positives. Bid disadvantage when creating desktop apps. That is much too close to be a coincidence. One of you has definitely copied the GUI design of the other (or you have both copied a third party). But that doesn't mean it is crack. I don't know if it is illegal to copy someone else's GUI that closely. But it is definitely sleazy and immoral to rip-off someone else's work like that. Andy Brice Monday, November 23, 2009 4. The moderation on JoS could be much better. If Andy Brice didn't have anything of substance to say - he should just stayed out of it. His comment gives the impression that it's quite possible that the ScanWiz guy was the plagiarist. I would have personally been upset about his comment. ( If I was the ScanWiz author. ) Last Edited By: Peter Codewrite 11/25/09 22:09:21. Edited 7 times.
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G0ddard B0lt	Re: Well - I certainly learned a few things from this thread:	#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9444 11/25/09 22:25:16 Have you ever tasted a rainbow? At OpenIT, you will.	Peter Codewrite wrote: 1. Don't be too fast to judge people. 2. Be careful when you outsource software development. 3. Virus scanners give a lot of false positives. Bid disadvantage when creating desktop apps. That is much too close to be a coincidence. One of you has definitely copied the GUI design of the other (or you have both copied a third party). But that doesn't mean it is crack. I don't know if it is illegal to copy someone else's GUI that closely. But it is definitely sleazy and immoral to rip-off someone else's work like that. Andy Brice Monday, November 23, 2009 4. The moderation on JoS could be much better. If Andy Brice didn't have anything of substance to say - he should just stayed out of it. His comment gives the impression that it's quite possible that the ScanWiz guy was the plagiarist. I would have personally been upset about his comment. ( If I was the ScanWiz author. ) You've nailed what I was trying to say here, especially points #1 and #4. I'm not convinced that the new guy is not just BSing and actually is trying to market a cracked copy of Scanwiz. But the point is, we don't know. IE, it seem quite convenient to use a popular offshoring site as the scapegoat for a copied UI.But it may be the truth. The value and personal judgements in that thread really pissed me off. JoS is the absolute last place I would go to unveil a new product or service. Those a$$holes just pile on like nobody's business. Geek follow-the-pack at work. JoS is for the "elite" like Andy Brice to go and posture that they are handpicked gurus.
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Peter Codewrite		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 835 11/25/09 23:01:01 Senior Member	I'm not convinced that the new guy is not just BSing and actually is trying to market a cracked copy of Scanwiz. But the point is, we don't know. IE, it seem quite convenient to use a popular offshoring site as the scapegoat for a copied UI.But it may be the truth. Yes - we don't know. However I have always had this suspicion that a lot of coders on those job sites wouldn't blink an eye when using GPLed code in their deliverable or like in this case - copying the UI of a commercial product extremely closely. BTW: Recently even Microsoft got burned by one of their contractors who included GPLed code into his deliverable. Speaking about viruses. I just run virus checker - Avast - for a first time in couple of years and it found two 'viruses'. One was a program that I created myself and the other one - program that I downloaded from MIT. The common thing between them - both contained the same Open Source VM - that I am almost certain is virus free. Dennis Nedry mentioned before about his program being flagged as virus as well. So my conclusion is - false positives are very common. P.S. I mentioned the AntiVirus point because my recent research is making me lean heavily away from desktop apps - even though this my specialty and I could develop one faster. Last Edited By: Peter Codewrite 11/25/09 23:11:50. Edited 1 time.
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The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special	11/24/09 01:49:52	G0ddard B0lt
Re: The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special	11/24/09 11:41:56	John Masterson
Re: The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special	11/24/09 12:29:48	G0ddard B0lt
Look and feel can not be protected by copyright	11/24/09 15:35:00	Origisaurus
Re: The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special	11/24/09 15:55:53	G0ddard B0lt
Re: The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special	11/24/09 16:57:00	John Masterson
Re: The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special	11/24/09 17:47:33	Richardk
Re: The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special	11/24/09 18:29:46	John Masterson
Re: The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special	11/24/09 18:34:51	Origisaurus
Re: The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special	11/24/09 18:49:02	John Masterson
If that's what he did...	11/24/09 20:50:42	Richardk
No, don't think so...	11/24/09 21:11:26	G0ddard B0lt
I'll agree with that but I'm still wondering...	11/24/09 21:52:08	Richardk
Re: The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special	11/24/09 22:53:44	John Masterson
If it was Delphi...	11/24/09 23:17:00	G0ddard B0lt
Well - I certainly learned a few things from this thread:	11/25/09 21:11:38	Peter Codewrite
Re: Well - I certainly learned a few things from this thread:	11/25/09 22:25:16	G0ddard B0lt
Re: The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special	11/25/09 23:01:01	Peter Codewrite
Re: The JoS Crowd is Certainly, ah, Special	11/24/09 12:54:55	G0ddard B0lt

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